i take it that was kind of aimed at me as i was the only one talking about safety isues.. a nitrous kit is a basic thing to install but you still got a cylinder containing compressed gas at a shitload of pressure and your introducing it into a motorsports arena, a compressed gas cylinder regardless of whats in it is still basically a mild bomb release it in the wrong way and it will cause damage regardless of if you used a couple of self tappers and the brakets to hold it in you have a crash and take the regulator off... just because you could rig up you own on board fire saftey equipment does that mean you should be able to do so for rally events rather than an FIA approved one to save some cash??
can we have nitrous injection allowed for next year?? please??
- Thread starter eight_six
- Start date
i take it that was kind of aimed at me as i was the only one talking about safety isues.. a nitrous kit is a basic thing to install but you still got a cylinder containing compressed gas at a shitload of pressure and your introducing it into a motorsports arena, a compressed gas cylinder regardless of whats in it is still basically a mild bomb release it in the wrong way and it will cause damage regardless of if you used a couple of self tappers and the brakets to hold it in you have a crash and take the regulator off... just because you could rig up you own on board fire saftey equipment does that mean you should be able to do so for rally events rather than an FIA approved one to save some cash??
Stavros
Active Member
Release nitrous in the WRONG way? Mild bomb? Have you never seen or used a nitrous bottle before?
Id like to see how you are going to smash a nitrous bottle in a way thats so bad the entire contents is released at once, and even then it wont shatter and the pressure itself wont do fuck all damage, just put any fire out that may be happening.
If its not held in right that could hurt, but so could a fire extinguisher or first aid kit not held in right.
Id like to see how you are going to smash a nitrous bottle in a way thats so bad the entire contents is released at once, and even then it wont shatter and the pressure itself wont do fuck all damage, just put any fire out that may be happening.
If its not held in right that could hurt, but so could a fire extinguisher or first aid kit not held in right.
hey fella, its no worries for me as i stock over 300lb's of the stuff at my shop!!!
and if people were interested it can be made into a portable trackside filling service...
retro danny boyyy.... the voices made me do it!!!!
if you read it i want talking about releasing nitrous i said releasing ANY COMPRESSED GAS!! and i dont mean the physical realease of it into the engine im talking an uncontrolled release when the bottle flies out and ruptures on tarmac during a crash i have work with compressed gas before and seen a carbon dioxide "quite unharmfull gass used in pubs around the county" canister hit the deck and rupture.. it made a mess put that in a car alright it might put the fire out but if it smashes in to the driver as it spins itself around the cab its gona hurt!! maybe i used the wrong term by saying mild bom alright it aint gona go boom but if its not fastened down or intalled correctly there is a danger, so shoot me for being abit saftey contious and it was only a sugestion as to why they might not allow it, im all for the use of it think it could even the playing fields for the lesser power cars, dont start giving it all the you know jack stuff i was only a suggestion..
at the end of the day you gotta put an extinguisher in the car, compressed gas in a cylinder, it has to be secured properly or it fails scrutineering.. sounds like a nos bottle wiv a different label!!!!!
but lets not start throwing toys out of cots over this you lot as i now know its legal in edc!!!!!
im gonna work on the others by sending letter bombs to the powers that be!!!! then no one can stop the Nevillenator in my bid to conquer all
but lets not start throwing toys out of cots over this you lot as i now know its legal in edc!!!!!
im gonna work on the others by sending letter bombs to the powers that be!!!! then no one can stop the Nevillenator in my bid to conquer all
i totaly agree dude it is exactly the same.. only one is tested and gets fia approval the other doesnt... again this was just me offering a reason as to wy.. if its aloud in all other forms of drifting then it should be legal in this one..
letter bommbs are a good way to start what about kidnpping of loved ones though? less messy maybe less prison time... just a thought..
letter bommbs are a good way to start what about kidnpping of loved ones though? less messy maybe less prison time... just a thought..
chip-3door
Member
A nitrous bottle is IDENTICAL to a CO2 fire extinguisher, and I really dont mean similar, I mean identical, in fact so much so I reguarly use fire extinguishers as nitrous bottles!
Old Skool Cars
Active Member
Interesting. Nos is great but ive read some people mention 100bhp shots etc and without getting into too much un-needed detail if u think a 86 will take that whack im sory ur mistaken. th power is fine but the torque creep is far to quick, sudden and severe for the puney box and axle to hack. please refer to exhibit A and B for instance:
exhibit a - BHP:
exhibit b - Torque:
in a nutshell thats 240bhp and 200Ibs.ft on a NA 4age 16v.
i originally wanted the crazy 100bhp burst but on the dyno it was simply dangerous for the sake of saying i have a 300bhp 4age. cos to get that much bhp u need a lot o gas and it fire nearly 200Ibs.ft before 5500rpm and was at 240Ibs.ft before he shut off power. far to extreme.
<--- Happy.
exhibit a - BHP:
exhibit b - Torque:
in a nutshell thats 240bhp and 200Ibs.ft on a NA 4age 16v.
i originally wanted the crazy 100bhp burst but on the dyno it was simply dangerous for the sake of saying i have a 300bhp 4age. cos to get that much bhp u need a lot o gas and it fire nearly 200Ibs.ft before 5500rpm and was at 240Ibs.ft before he shut off power. far to extreme.
<--- Happy.
Last edited:
aaaah no bullshit graph!!!!
now thats wot im talking about,
have had a progressive 100 shot on a bog standard vauxhall nova 1.6 8v gte, it gave 201bhp at the flywheel, and ran probably 30+ bottles through it before i sold it!!!
retard the timing, soften the initial hit and you will be able to run this hp level ona 4age..
but i know that the tranny and axle will NOT be able to cope with the immense torque increase!!!!
and its that massive increase in torque that is wot is really beneficial to nitrous on drift cars.. means we can SHIFT UP!!!!!!!!
now thats wot im talking about,
have had a progressive 100 shot on a bog standard vauxhall nova 1.6 8v gte, it gave 201bhp at the flywheel, and ran probably 30+ bottles through it before i sold it!!!
retard the timing, soften the initial hit and you will be able to run this hp level ona 4age..
but i know that the tranny and axle will NOT be able to cope with the immense torque increase!!!!
and its that massive increase in torque that is wot is really beneficial to nitrous on drift cars.. means we can SHIFT UP!!!!!!!!
chip-3door
Member
On a nasty NX kit with its terrible delivery style, I complete agree with you, on a decent wizards of nos progressive kit though, what you are saying is absolute nonsense from 6500rpm onwards you could have FAR more power without the torque getting back to as high as your peak figures.
Trevor Langfield
New Member
Hi to everyone participating on this thread, especially Chip.
My name is Trevor Langfield (aka The Wizard Of NOS) and I was directed to this forum thread, by a potential customer.
After reading the entire thread, I thought I'd share some of my 35+ years of the knowledge and experience with you all (if the majority have no objections), that I've accumulated as a result of my dedication, to understanding and using nitrous oxide.
Before I do so, please be assured that my primary intention for sharing this knowledge, is for educational purposes and none of it is sales BS.
Rather than creating one extremely long and overwhelming post, I'm going to post a number of smaller ones, each of which will deal with, just one or two aspects of this subjects at a time.
I'll start with safety matters first, as that's been my top priority, since my first encounter with American brand solenoids, that resulted in my motorcycle catching fire 'twice'.
It would be worth keeping in mind, before I go into specific safety issues, that as far as I'm aware, if not currently at least for a number of years, WON nitrous systems have been in use, on the vast majority of nitrous assisted Time Attack cars and were on the winners cars, for at least a couple of years.
I think it's also an appropriate point to mention, that we have supplied our systems for a number of Drift cars, which are owned and raced outside the UK, as well as to a couple who were intending to race in the UK.
The reason I mention the use of our systems in the Time Attack cars, is because there is a much higher risk in all regards, in that class of motorsport, than there will ever be in Drifting.
With that in mind and the fact that, I'm not aware of even a single, minor safety issue, having ever occurred (even though it's a number of years since it was allowed), I can confidently state, that;
1) Anybody thinking of using a WON nitrous system for Drifting, has 'nothing' to worry about in this regard but please believe me, the same can NOT be said for any other brand.
2) There can be no genuine safety related reason for not allowing, the use of WON nitrous systems in any motorsport but again, the same can NOT be said for other brands.
If anyone doubts, my statements above, I'd be more than happy to go into detailed explanations and provide demonstration videos, to prove that there is a huge difference in the levels of safety, between using WON products and any other brand. The same safety concerns would apply to any DIY kit that anyone cobbled together.
The safety of the bottles has been mentioned a few times, so here are a few 'facts' relating to that component of a nitrous system;
1) Not all nitrous bottles are the same
2) WON bottles conform to EU standards
3) ALL other brands conform to inferior US standards
4) WON bottles are therefore much stronger than any other brand
5) Technically, as a result of US bottles not being good enough to meet EU standards, they are not considered safe to use and/or refill in the UK, although that hasn't stopped many people from doing so.
6) WON is the only company, to have manufactured a unique bottle valve, that 'surpasses' even the EU safety standards. All other brands do not even meet them.
7) I've known a number of WON motorcycle customers, fail to secure their bottles adequately and as a result, the bottles have parted company with the bikes. Even though this has occurred at very high speeds (150 plus), resulting in the bottles bouncing down tarmac roads and Drag strips for substantial distances, NONE of the bottles or valves, has been rendered unusable.
8) In 35 years, I've never had any customer report to me, that they've even heard of a WON bottle, suffering any damage beyond scratches, so I'm extremely confident, that bottle related 'disasters', of the kind that I've seen mentioned in this thread, are even beyond the realms of possibility, especially in Drifting.
Nitrous is no different to most other motorsport related component, in that to achieve good reliable results, you need a correctly designed, good quality system, that then needs to be fitted and used correctly. Failure in any of those respects, will lead to related failures, just as would be the case with a fire extinguisher system or a turbo charger system.
Final safety related matter (for now at least), is the competence of those bodies making the safety rules. I'm not aware of the reasons why, most motorsport bodies exclude nitrous oxide (because most won't even discuss their reasons), so I can't comment on those.
However, as mentioned in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure that, it's more likely to be due to a lack of knowledge and understanding, than any rational reason, as there are none.
Having been involved in Drag racing for 35+ years and having been involved in discussions over the nitrous rules, I can say that they are totally inappropriate (having been created by American's approx. 50 years ago, with little to no updating since) and they fail to address the real safety issues entirely. Due to their ignorance, that body has even decide to retain rules, that I've proven make a vehicle more unsafe and as a result, they are allowing people to be put at unnecessary risk.
Such actions certainly don't inspire me with confidence, in any such bodies but at least those who created the Time Attack rules, had the good sense to allow nitrous and I doubt that anyone would deny, that it is one of the reasons, why it is so popular.
Best regards
My name is Trevor Langfield (aka The Wizard Of NOS) and I was directed to this forum thread, by a potential customer.
After reading the entire thread, I thought I'd share some of my 35+ years of the knowledge and experience with you all (if the majority have no objections), that I've accumulated as a result of my dedication, to understanding and using nitrous oxide.
Before I do so, please be assured that my primary intention for sharing this knowledge, is for educational purposes and none of it is sales BS.
Rather than creating one extremely long and overwhelming post, I'm going to post a number of smaller ones, each of which will deal with, just one or two aspects of this subjects at a time.
I'll start with safety matters first, as that's been my top priority, since my first encounter with American brand solenoids, that resulted in my motorcycle catching fire 'twice'.
It would be worth keeping in mind, before I go into specific safety issues, that as far as I'm aware, if not currently at least for a number of years, WON nitrous systems have been in use, on the vast majority of nitrous assisted Time Attack cars and were on the winners cars, for at least a couple of years.
I think it's also an appropriate point to mention, that we have supplied our systems for a number of Drift cars, which are owned and raced outside the UK, as well as to a couple who were intending to race in the UK.
The reason I mention the use of our systems in the Time Attack cars, is because there is a much higher risk in all regards, in that class of motorsport, than there will ever be in Drifting.
With that in mind and the fact that, I'm not aware of even a single, minor safety issue, having ever occurred (even though it's a number of years since it was allowed), I can confidently state, that;
1) Anybody thinking of using a WON nitrous system for Drifting, has 'nothing' to worry about in this regard but please believe me, the same can NOT be said for any other brand.
2) There can be no genuine safety related reason for not allowing, the use of WON nitrous systems in any motorsport but again, the same can NOT be said for other brands.
If anyone doubts, my statements above, I'd be more than happy to go into detailed explanations and provide demonstration videos, to prove that there is a huge difference in the levels of safety, between using WON products and any other brand. The same safety concerns would apply to any DIY kit that anyone cobbled together.
The safety of the bottles has been mentioned a few times, so here are a few 'facts' relating to that component of a nitrous system;
1) Not all nitrous bottles are the same
2) WON bottles conform to EU standards
3) ALL other brands conform to inferior US standards
4) WON bottles are therefore much stronger than any other brand
5) Technically, as a result of US bottles not being good enough to meet EU standards, they are not considered safe to use and/or refill in the UK, although that hasn't stopped many people from doing so.
6) WON is the only company, to have manufactured a unique bottle valve, that 'surpasses' even the EU safety standards. All other brands do not even meet them.
7) I've known a number of WON motorcycle customers, fail to secure their bottles adequately and as a result, the bottles have parted company with the bikes. Even though this has occurred at very high speeds (150 plus), resulting in the bottles bouncing down tarmac roads and Drag strips for substantial distances, NONE of the bottles or valves, has been rendered unusable.
8) In 35 years, I've never had any customer report to me, that they've even heard of a WON bottle, suffering any damage beyond scratches, so I'm extremely confident, that bottle related 'disasters', of the kind that I've seen mentioned in this thread, are even beyond the realms of possibility, especially in Drifting.
Nitrous is no different to most other motorsport related component, in that to achieve good reliable results, you need a correctly designed, good quality system, that then needs to be fitted and used correctly. Failure in any of those respects, will lead to related failures, just as would be the case with a fire extinguisher system or a turbo charger system.
Final safety related matter (for now at least), is the competence of those bodies making the safety rules. I'm not aware of the reasons why, most motorsport bodies exclude nitrous oxide (because most won't even discuss their reasons), so I can't comment on those.
However, as mentioned in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure that, it's more likely to be due to a lack of knowledge and understanding, than any rational reason, as there are none.
Having been involved in Drag racing for 35+ years and having been involved in discussions over the nitrous rules, I can say that they are totally inappropriate (having been created by American's approx. 50 years ago, with little to no updating since) and they fail to address the real safety issues entirely. Due to their ignorance, that body has even decide to retain rules, that I've proven make a vehicle more unsafe and as a result, they are allowing people to be put at unnecessary risk.
Such actions certainly don't inspire me with confidence, in any such bodies but at least those who created the Time Attack rules, had the good sense to allow nitrous and I doubt that anyone would deny, that it is one of the reasons, why it is so popular.
Best regards
Bladerider
Ajudged scoundrel !!
Thanks !!
Trevor Langfield
New Member
Costs;
With regards to the costs involved, although there are the running costs of buying the nitrous itself, even if the total cost of fitting and using a nitrous system, was higher than the alternatives, there are a number of factors that should be kept in mind, that should be considered as offsets against the total cost;
1) As long as you choose a WON system, it will never wear out, break or fail (assuming it is fitted and used correctly), unlike just about every alternative.
2) As a result of point 1 (in conjunction with some of the inherent and unique characteristics of a nitrous system), if you decide to change your car for any reason, you can transplant the nitrous system on to your new one, rather than having to buy anew.
3) The initial cost is much lower than most alternatives and the running costs are obviously spread over a period of time, making the total cost more manageable.
4) There is no other tuning method, that can deliver such an instant and precise power increase and deliver it, in such a controllable way (even with a basic system), which are all features, that give a competitor a substantial edge, even over another competitor who has more conventional power.
Cheating;
Using nitrous is only cheating, if the rules exclude its use.
Use;
Contrary to what most people believe or expect, a competitor wouldn't need to use nitrous, continuously throughout a Drift run. Nitrous can be used to instantaneously break traction and once that's been achieved, it takes less power to maintain the drift, so the nitrous can be switched off, until it is needed again.
To all intents and purposes, I was the first person in the world (as far as I've been able to ascertain), to 'drift' a car to the ultimate level (multiple donuts) and certainly, the first to do so using a nitrous system. I achieved this by using the nitrous to spin up the tires (from and in a stationary position), followed by 'encouraging' the back end of the car to 'drift' sideways. Once the donut had adequate momentum, I was able to switch off the nitrous and still maintain a high level of wheel speed, until the tires started gripping against the rubber laid on the track, at which point I reactivated the nitrous, to speed up the wheel speed again and I repeated this process a number of times, until I achieved in excess of 10 rotations and burst the tires.
Although I've never 'drifted' a car in the way it's done in competition, I would 'think' (although I may be wrong), that my example above, would be representative of how the nitrous would be used on such cars.
With regards to the costs involved, although there are the running costs of buying the nitrous itself, even if the total cost of fitting and using a nitrous system, was higher than the alternatives, there are a number of factors that should be kept in mind, that should be considered as offsets against the total cost;
1) As long as you choose a WON system, it will never wear out, break or fail (assuming it is fitted and used correctly), unlike just about every alternative.
2) As a result of point 1 (in conjunction with some of the inherent and unique characteristics of a nitrous system), if you decide to change your car for any reason, you can transplant the nitrous system on to your new one, rather than having to buy anew.
3) The initial cost is much lower than most alternatives and the running costs are obviously spread over a period of time, making the total cost more manageable.
4) There is no other tuning method, that can deliver such an instant and precise power increase and deliver it, in such a controllable way (even with a basic system), which are all features, that give a competitor a substantial edge, even over another competitor who has more conventional power.
Cheating;
Using nitrous is only cheating, if the rules exclude its use.
Use;
Contrary to what most people believe or expect, a competitor wouldn't need to use nitrous, continuously throughout a Drift run. Nitrous can be used to instantaneously break traction and once that's been achieved, it takes less power to maintain the drift, so the nitrous can be switched off, until it is needed again.
To all intents and purposes, I was the first person in the world (as far as I've been able to ascertain), to 'drift' a car to the ultimate level (multiple donuts) and certainly, the first to do so using a nitrous system. I achieved this by using the nitrous to spin up the tires (from and in a stationary position), followed by 'encouraging' the back end of the car to 'drift' sideways. Once the donut had adequate momentum, I was able to switch off the nitrous and still maintain a high level of wheel speed, until the tires started gripping against the rubber laid on the track, at which point I reactivated the nitrous, to speed up the wheel speed again and I repeated this process a number of times, until I achieved in excess of 10 rotations and burst the tires.
Although I've never 'drifted' a car in the way it's done in competition, I would 'think' (although I may be wrong), that my example above, would be representative of how the nitrous would be used on such cars.
Bladerider
Ajudged scoundrel !!
Hi Trevor,
Drifting doesn't work like that donut example and certainly the concept of "switching nitrous on and off" to overwhelm the tyres is totally not what N2O systems are used for in drifting. Its principle use is for spooling larger turbos so that you have the benefit of the power sooner, more progressively if required and effectively broadening your spread of power or power band. Thats not to say some aren't using them to add power to a car that would be less powerful without Nitrous - Dan Firmager is probably the most well known to use it like this in the UK.
Glad you like Time Attack
J.
Drifting doesn't work like that donut example and certainly the concept of "switching nitrous on and off" to overwhelm the tyres is totally not what N2O systems are used for in drifting. Its principle use is for spooling larger turbos so that you have the benefit of the power sooner, more progressively if required and effectively broadening your spread of power or power band. Thats not to say some aren't using them to add power to a car that would be less powerful without Nitrous - Dan Firmager is probably the most well known to use it like this in the UK.
Glad you like Time Attack
J.
Trevor Langfield
New Member
My comments were aimed at NA engines and a way of using nitrous, that may not have been considered by the majority. I have customers who use it as you've stated and customers that use it roughly as I've described. It's all a matter of combo spec, choice and 'horses for courses'.Hi Trevor,
Drifting doesn't work like that donut example and certainly the concept of "switching nitrous on and off" to overwhelm the tyres is totally not what N2O systems are used for in drifting. Its principle use is for spooling larger turbos so that you have the benefit of the power sooner, more progressively if required and effectively broadening your spread of power or power band. Thats not to say some aren't using them to add power to a car that would be less powerful without Nitrous - Dan Firmager is probably the most well known to use it like this in the UK.
Glad you like Time Attack
J.
Trevor Langfield
New Member
I realised this was a 10 year old thread after making my first post but if anyone is still interested in more tech info on this matter, that hasn't already been learned in the past 10 years, I'd be happy to provide more details?
Regards
Trev
Regards
Trev
David Reid
RB30 Charger
Your posts are very interesting please continue posting
Bladerider
Ajudged scoundrel !!
I agree,
I think it would be very beneficial to hear what experience has taught you with regards to spec of the engine and internals when aiming to use Nitrous and other details that may help people to get the best from it.
J.
I think it would be very beneficial to hear what experience has taught you with regards to spec of the engine and internals when aiming to use Nitrous and other details that may help people to get the best from it.
J.